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[kc26]

Please define (very specifically) what anti-gay causes are. I would be happy to chime in when I have time, but rather than speak in terms of generalities, let's talk about the issues.

If we are talking only about marriage, I absolutely believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. I have absolutely no problem with gay couples receiving all of the legal rights (both good and bad) of a married couple, but I do not view it as a marriage. Next there will be an argument to call both green and red ..... red. After all, they are both colors. Why should red have the exclusive right to that name? Are we all colorists because we named them differently? Is this a sign of a huge hate of green?

Why is it considered hateful to have two different names for two relationships that are clearly physically different? Perhaps the term gay is actually hateful since you are using a name to define a difference. Perhaps black, asian, latino, white, etc are also hateful since they are words used describe differences.

Perhaps this could all be settled if we just get rid of the terms man and women.

[-Alex]

Please define (very specifically) what anti-gay causes are.

In this case, I was referring specifically to Family Research Council and Exodus International. There are others, but I'll stick with the ones that Chick-Fil-A has donated to.

The Family Research Council is an SPLC designated hate group. It used to be a division of Focus on the Family, James Dobson's organization. The function of the FRC is to promote what it considers to be traditional family values, by advocating and lobbying for socially conservative policies. It advocates against LGBT rights, abortion, divorce, embryonic stem-cell research, the theory that global warming is the result of human activity, and pornography. The FRC is affiliated with a 501(c)(4) lobbying PAC known as FRC Action. The organization has been involved in the politics of social policy, notably in controversy concerning its position on homosexuality.

Family Research Council is a member of ProtectMarriage.com, a coalition formed to sponsor California Proposition 8 to restrict marriage to opposite-sex couples only, which passed in 2008. The Family Research Council's Senior Researcher for Policy Studies Peter Sprigg was criticized when he, in his official capacity as a fellow of the FRC, stated that gay behavior should be outlawed and that "criminal sanctions against homosexual behavior" should be enforced. Sprigg has publicly suggested that repealing Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy would encourage molestation of heterosexual service members. President Tony Perkins repeated the FRC’s association of gay men with pedophilia saying that "If you look at the American College of Pediatricians, they say the research is overwhelming that homosexuality poses a danger to children." ACP is another anti-gay hate group that is about 10 years old, of people who defected from the AAP due to their anti-gay views, because the facts didn't align. Some scientists whose work is cited by the American College of Pediatricians have accused the FRC of distorting and misrepresenting their work.

Exodus International is an "ex-gay" Christian organization that seeks to limit bisexual and homosexual desires. It does not use recognized and/or proper theraputic techniques, often using conversion therapy - which is simply conditioning - that has led to greater harm in individuals and takes much repair from qualified therapists. Until recently, the organization promised a cure from homosexual desire, though recently the president said that 99.9% of the people he's met through the program have not been cured. This has of course sparked opposition with those lower in the organization who with to promise a cure they can't deliver. It perpetuates the idea that same sex couples are inferior and cannot provide what heterosexual relationships can. It's subsidiaries often take unwilling patients (I've known a few who have been through it), in a futile attempt to reorient them. Robert Spitzer's study is well known as support for ex-gay organizations authenticity, but was widely criticized and he has recanted his study as relying too much on selective reporting of a few individuals.

If we are talking only about marriage, I absolutely believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

I see no reason why marriage should be limited on the basis of gender in this way. Gay marriage and straight marriage are both marriage, in the way that the red color and the green color are both colors.

Why is it considered hateful to have two different names for two relationships that are clearly physically different?

For the same reason it was when people asked that question about interracial relationships. It serves no legitimate interest for separate rights to exist on the basis of gender. Just as it would serve no legitimate interest for interracial unions to be called civil unions. Or for men to vote, but women to "pledge." Or for whites to vote, but blacks to have 3/5 vote, when they are clearly different. The difference is not relevant.

Perhaps black, asian, latino, white, etc are also hateful since they are words used describe differences.

Marriages between blacks, asians, latinos, whites, etc. are all marriages. Not black domestic partnership, asian civil union, latino bond, white marriage. Race is not relevant. Nor is gender.

Perhaps this could all be settled if we just get rid of the terms man and women.

In the law, at least, just as if we get rid of many of the terms black, white, asian, latino, and replace them all with human. There is really no reason to treat these people differently, so let's treat them the same and remove these distinctions from law.

[mel bradford]

The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) is a fraudulent left wing money machine that for the better part of 40 years has bilked scared liberals out of millions by positioning itself as the authority on 'hate groups'. Its founder Morris Dees, who himself is a homosexual, simply took his direct mail marketing skills and applied them to a campaign of so-called tolerance which is really a veiled anti-tolerance.....and has nothing to do with 'southern poverty'.

Anyone can research this stuff. All you need is a good BS detector.

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/mbarber/100325

[mel bradford]

"In the law, at least, just as if we get rid of many of the terms black, white, asian, latino, and replace them all with human. There is really no reason to treat these people differently, so let's treat them the same and remove these distinctions from law."


What distinctions in the law ?
The US Code and Washington State Law DO NOT MAKE RACE DISTINCTIONS. Neither does the US Constitution or the Washington State Constitution. Nice try .....

[-Alex]

All you need is a good BS detector.

Just be sure you're not nearby when they use it, right mel? By the way, thanks for the detailed response to those four words of my post ignoring the rest of the paragraphs.

What distinctions in the law ?
The US Code and Washington State Law DO NOT MAKE RACE DISTINCTIONS.

Exactly my point to kc26 (I understand that you could have misunderstood the flow of the conversation, my apologies - I know it was quite unclear!). We got rid of those terms in the law, at least, now we get rid of male and female in marriage law and replace them with human.

Kc26, the terms black, asian, latino, white, etc are not hateful, nor are the terms male and female, or gay and straight. No reason to have two different names for any of these relationships which are all quite varied. We already took race out, so now we are taking gender out.

[mel bradford]

get rid of male/ female ?

Boy, you really are on crack. What other part of creation do you want to get rid of in your attempt to legitimatize the most disgusting sexual practice available between men ?

Then be the first on your block to discourage a 'homosexual sex based political movement'. If we're all 'just human' then why make a distinction ?....by your own logic.

Of course I can see why a man who cannot live up to his manhood would want to deny the identity of being a man and all the responsibility, dignity and character that comes with it. Its easier to just project your pain on to the rest of society and blame everyone else for the plight of your degeneracy. And then make a feeble attempt at normalcy by denying that gay parades, bare backing , and all the disease that comes from playing in the human sewer are anything but public displays of perversion, mockery, and a danger to health....not to mention a warped psychology of social co-dependence .

[-Alex]

get rid of male/ female ?

In marriage law. Yes.

What other part of creation do you want to get rid of

None, not even get rid of race or gender.Again, I am talking about in the law.

...in your attempt to legitimatize the most disgusting sexual practice available between men ?

It's already legal. And you are free to find it as disgusting as you want. Nobody cares.

then be the first on your block to discourage a 'homosexual sex based political movement'.

That movement is already done and gone We are on marriage now.

If we're all 'just human' then why make a distinction ?....by your own logic.

Exactly. Marriage is between two humans.

And yawn to the rest of your personal attack on me, who you don't know. Nobody here cares. Hopefully it at least made you feel important.

[Grandma Lynn]

get rid of male/ female ?

Boy, you really are on crack. What other part of creation do you want to get rid of in your attempt to legitimatize the most disgusting sexual practice available between men ?

Then be the first on your block to discourage a 'homosexual sex based political movement'. If we're all 'just human' then why make a distinction ?....by your own logic.

Of course I can see why a man who cannot live up to his manhood would want to deny the identity of being a man and all the responsibility, dignity and character that comes with it. Its easier to just project your pain on to the rest of society and blame everyone else for the plight of your degeneracy. And then make a feeble attempt at normalcy by denying that gay parades, bare backing , and all the disease that comes from playing in the human sewer are anything but public displays of perversion, mockery, and a danger to health....not to mention a warped psychology of social co-dependence .

I have to step in and say your last paragraph
is disturbing to me. For one, "live up to your
manhood". If you are born this way, as you
are born a straight man, how can you blame
a man who is gay?
Second, I don't think any gay is "projecting
their pain" to the rest of society, or blaming
everyone else that they are gay.
You are grouping some gays with all gays.
We all have people who aren't good people.
Don't put the gays all together as perverts!
I think you have blinders on this subject.
I guess I just don't understand your beliefs
on this subject.

[Lil Iodine]

I think Mel said it very good. He expressed how he felt and why can't he do that??? I don't agree on much he said, but he has a right to say it. Just like you GL. I agree with a lot you said too.

I grew up hearing just exactly what Mel said. Maybe that is why I didn't take it as so shocking as Alex and GL did.Marriage for gays....NO! Why not let them have every right we have except don't call it marriage. That is for man and woman!!!! I will NEVER change my mind on that or except it. A civil ceremony with all the rights as marriage. That is better than what I thought of it a few years ago...

[-Alex]

Grandma Lynn, do not expect to understand him. His first post to me, in response to my first forum post, was anti-gay, telling me I seemed "almost normal", and later he talked about how he despised gay men's "persona", as if it is all some act