Forums

[-Alex]

If President exploit-the-children-in -chief had an ounce of self honesty around the gun issue he'd go to his home city, Chicago, and point the finger at the real problem in America. Its not guns its violence.

So, how exactly is Chicago violence the real problem behind the Sandy Hook shooting, or the Arizona shooting, or the Aurora shooting?

And how did Obama exploit people that wrote to him of their own free will?

[mel bradford]

Non sequitur Alex. Sandy Hook is done, over. 1.5 people will die violently in Chicago today. The overwhelming percentage of gun violence in America today is gang related. O won't touch it with a ten foot pole....because he's a coward....doesn't want to dis the brothers or the Dem party machines that laud over our urban centers.

The photo-op with the children is shameless political grand standing 101. And no, the president has no authority to establish any gun regulations. And nothing that is being proposed is going to stem gun violence.

[-Alex]

Non sequitur Alex.

Uh, not really - this whole thread "I Am Enraged and Saddened" is about the Sandy Hook shooting in particular. And there are other mass shootings like it. The things we want to address is ALL gun violence, not just gun violence in Chicago.

And it's a good thing that Obama is looking at comprehensive solutions to address all gun violence, including enforcing background checks for all gun sales, so that people including gangs can't have the same access to guns that they do now.

The photo-op with the children is shameless political grand standing 101.

How so? How is featuring people who wrote to you shameless political grand standing?

And no, the president has no authority to establish any gun regulations. And nothing that is being proposed is going to stem gun violence.

If he has no authority, then you have nothing to worry about. And you're free to think nothing is going to stem it, and still offer no solutions.

[glenstar]

I think that most of us can agree that any solution must have numerous and diverse actions. Besides some form of gun control, there must be education,,address the mentally ill issues, community support, and religious support.
I admit that when I first started this thread that I was so angry, sad,, and distraught over this senseless massacre, that I could only blame the shooter, and Alex too me to task for not being understanding of the mental illness involved.

I spent some time working in a very dangerous area of the South Bronx working with "street people". I know better than to have such knee jerk reaction like I did,. The solution is complex, and I must admit that I do not have the answers.
So, my original thread title still stands, I am enraged and saddened, and yes, I am just as enraged and saddened when someone is gunned down in Chicago, NY, LA, Seattle, or Yakima or any other city. I grieve when I read about murders, accidents, and any senseless loss of life.

[JimDandy75]

Alex, a study of prison inmates showed that they didn't get guns from gun shows by and large. They got them from illegal sales/sellers, or stole them. Straw Purchases was the largest category as I recall.

And as for a comprehensive approach to ending gun violence, I don't think a plan of going after the guns used LEAST often in gun crime held by the people least often perpetrating that gun crime is all that comprehensive.

[-Alex]

Alex, a study of prison inmates showed that they didn't get guns from gun shows by and large. They got them from illegal sales/sellers, or stole them. Straw Purchases was the largest category as I recall.

Can you link me to that study? I've seen many different sources saying somewhat conflicting things, but all point to a myriad of ways that criminals get guns. I have read something from an ATF agent that corrupt dealers and straw purchases are high on the list, but also read private sales (more broad than gun shows that you brought up) contribute. I would like us to be able to track this better.

I don't think a plan of going after the guns used LEAST often in gun crime held by the people least often perpetrating that gun crime is all that comprehensive.

Correct, having solely one objective, no matter what it is, would be by definition NOT comprehensive.

[JimDandy75]

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/guns.cfm

80% from family, friends, street purchase.

2% from Gunshows and flea markets.

There's a reason I, as a gun owner, am not especially worried about gun shows. To buy or sell at the WA gun shows, you have join a really irritating membership group that I'm not particularly fond of. As part of joining you go through a background check. So you didn't really avoid the background check, you just took it at a different time, possibly paid more (They take Concealed Pistol Licenses issues by WA at face value and accept them as proof of background). The issue is it's voluntary, I get. Beyond that you have to find exactly what you want. It has to be for sale that day. It has to be for sale, that day, by a private seller as gun shops with a booth at a gun show still have to do the 4473 form and NICS check. Lot of work in one of the most crowded and irritating environments I've ever been in.

No,I'm far more worried about the replica black powder stuff. You can go to Cabelas 7 days a week, and without a background check EVER, buy a replica of several different models of "cowboy" pistol from our "wild west" days. Sure it's black powder, but you reload those by changing out the cylinder... so with enough planning the next mentally disturbed guy could do this same thing all over again with a 175 year old designed pistol, some black powder, and round ball ammo. Not AS effective as a 101 year old 1911 pistol, but plenty good enough that I wouldn't want someone adjudicated mentally deficient to have one.

[-Alex]

80% from family, friends, street purchase.

Family and friends purchases/ private sales are legal, though, and that made up about 40%, right?

There's a reason I, as a gun owner, am not especially worried about gun shows.

Ok, great. Why bring them up?

It has to be for sale, that day, by a private seller as gun shops with a booth at a gun show still have to do the 4473 form and NICS check.

So this is a Washington state law? I'd love to have this a national law!

[JimDandy75]

That made up 80%. As for legal that depends on a few factors...

If they were inellible to buy before being arrested, disqualified by one of the questions on the 4473 form then no, it's not legal. It may not have been illegal for the family/friends to give it to them (assuming it was given and not stolen) but it was illegal for them to accept it.

And no, gun shops with a booth at the gun show must file a 4473 form and do a NICS check as part of their Federal Firearms License. I brought it up because of the second part.. going to a gun show on the weekend of the gunshow and finding what you want in the hands of a private seller is really something of a perfect storm of events.. decided a black powder replica is good enough, and being able to get them without a check 7 days a week isn't.

[-Alex]

That made up 80%. As for legal that depends on a few factors...

Ok, then can we get back to earlier? You claimed a study of prison inmates showed they got guns from illegal sales/sellers, or stole them - and you recalled straw purchases was the largest category. Was that a mis-recollection of the study you read?

If they were ineligible to buy before being arrested, disqualified by one of the questions on the 4473 form then no, it's not legal.

I'm not sure I follow. Private sales don't require a 4473, only when purchasing from a Federal Firearm License holder. So they could go through private sales without having a background check, or even knowing they failed a background check, but can purchase through private sources.

It may not have been illegal for the family/friends to give it to them (assuming it was given and not stolen) but it was llegal for them to accept it.

So, if I understand you, you mean you can arrest someone for having privately purchased or obtained a gun, if they would knowingly or unknowingly fail a background check?

And no, gun shops with a booth at the gun show must file a 4473 form and do a NICS check as part of their Federal Firearms License.

Oh, right, my misunderstanding - gun shops, not private vendors. FFL gun shops at a gun show of course still have to follow the background check, non-FFL people do not. If Non-FFL people were required to do the 4473 and NICS check, THAT would be great. Which I believe is something being pushed for now.